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Swindon 8F mystery photograph


article by: Ian Crowder
posted on: 01 April 2010
updated on: 15 May 2010

Badly damaged picture found in an outhouse of an 8F 2-8-0 which has most definitely been ‘Swindonised’. But why?  And when?  (Photograph from the late Martin A E Willis)
Badly damaged picture found in an outhouse of an 8F 2-8-0 which has most definitely been ‘Swindonised’. But why? And when? (Photograph from the late Martin A E Willis)   Click to view larger version

It's quite widely known that many of Sir William Stanier's versatile LMS heavy freight 8F class were built by contractors, particularly to meet the war effort and indeed, 80 were constructed by the Great Western Railway at Swindon.  However, evidence has come to light in the shape of some pencilled notes from a works foreman at the time and the accompanying rather badly damaged photograph, that Swindon attempted to impose GWR practice on the 8Fs they built.  They did so to the extent that the first of the series, no. 8400, seems to have been turned out with a 'Swindonised' boiler.  Stanier of course, was once assistant works manager to G J Churchward at Swindon and his own LMS boilers were heavily influenced by Swindon practice.  But Stanier and the Railway Executive Committee, who ordered the locomotives,  were apparently far from amused at such extravagancies during a time of wartime austerity and at what might after all, have simply been a practical joke that badly backfired.  On top of that, the engine appears to have a Swindon cabside number. 

The picture is clearly an 8F but the locomotive sports GWR-style safety valves and bonnet as well as a copper-capped chimney, and the number 8400 on a GWR cabside plate (in fact, a number later to be carried by a Hawksworth pannier tank).  

It was provided by Alan Greer of STEAM at Swindon, who explains: "I was exploring a cardboard box containing some old documents, dockets, drawings and pictures left to the Museum from the family of a one Martin A E Willis who was a foreman in the boiler shop at Swindon works during the war.  Unfortunately the box had been kept in a leaking outhouse and had suffered badly from water, mould and rodent damage and it was a job to separate some of the papers, many of which were written in fountain pen ink and were almost indecipherable.  The photographs were of locos and some armaments produced during the war years and these also were badly stained and damaged.  But there was one picture separately folded up in an envelope and I was astonished to see once it was unfolded, that it was an LMS 8F that looked as if it had a Swindon boiler.  

"There was a piece of paper with a pencilled note in the envelope, dated 1st April 1943.  From what I could read it said the engine was only in this guise for a few days before being fitted with its proper boiler and this is the only picture of it.  The note goes on to say: 'Got into a lot of trouble from Mr. Stanier and some top brass from the Railway Executive came down from London to give us a real carpeting.  Ivan [thought to be the assistant works photographer Ivan Bellows] was ordered to destroy the negative and we were told to keep shut-up about it. But he given (sic) it to me because I'm betrothed to Angela [believed to be the photographer's sister or cousin] but told me to burn it'."   

Alan adds: "Clearly he never did as he was told.  There were rumours but now we have this vital evidence with the picture and Willis's pencilled notes of explanation."

The Churchill 8F Locomotive Group, which is restoring former Turkish Stanier 8F 2-8-0 no. 8274 at Toddington will turn it out for GWR175 as one of the Swindon-built examples, but have no plans to 'Swindonise' their engine in this way.

Click here for more information about this mystery locomotive and add your views.







4 comments for “Swindon 8F mystery photograph”

  1. Gravatar of Andy BryneAndy Bryne
    Posted 01 April 2010 at 07:26:46

    Nice try but you picked the wrong Stanier locomotive! The first Stanier MOGUL (not an 8F) was delivered from Crewe in 1933 with a GWR style safety valve bonnet. This was hastily removed after William Stanier expressed his displeasure at such an obvious copy of Swindon practice. However, it was believed that all official photos taken of Stanier 2-6-0 No 13245 were destroyed. Nevertheless a copy of a photo from the NRM archives is at page 27 of the book Stanier Locomotives, by Brian Haresnape.(Ian Allan) The first 10 Stanier moguls had safety valves fitted on the boiler casing but the remaining 30 were built with the safety valves on the firebox. All 40 were eventually fitted with the latter to meet LMS loading gauge requirements, particularly in Scotland. Only 1 Stanier mogul survives (having been rescued from Barry Scrapyard) No 42968, normally based at the Severn Valley Rly. Late in their careers, some of the Stanier moguls were overhauled at Swindon. Some 8Fs were of course built at Swindon for the war effort in WWII but never carried such accoutrements as shown in the faked photo.

  2. Gravatar of Jamie GreenJamie Green
    Posted 01 April 2010 at 09:18:00

    And there was I expecting 3440 in full WW1 ROD Khaki!

  3. Posted 02 April 2010 at 14:39:45

    Yes, a wonderful photo, you had me for a couple of mins! All excited about Swindon secrets unearthed,ha ha! I was expecting an announcement about through trains in 2012 to Cheltenham from Stratford backed by Lord Adonis!

  4. Gravatar of Howard ParkerHoward Parker
    Posted 02 April 2010 at 18:50:09

    I'm still slightly disappointed that 3440/3717 isn't REALLY going to be in BR lined black!


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